LOP not recognized?
April 21, 2008 in League, News
According to Gauteng Basketball Association (GBA), the League of Pros is not recognized. Here is the main issue as discussed in the email sent by GBA management to a fellow basketball enthusiast, Tshepo Ditshego.
“Please be advised that as GBA, we do not recognize LOP and all those who play in LOP are not eligible to any District, provincial and National team. The only recognized leagues are: GBA senior League, Tshwane and Ekhuruleni.
Please inform who ever is at LOP or LOP owners that they are wasting people’s time and money.
As GBA, we will be summoning the referees and giving them clear instructions, please ask Naftal as to what happens when you do not obey the federations instructions as a referee.
Thank you.”
Question to the readers: Is basketball in South Africa shooting itself in the foot again or is GBA right in failing to recognize League of Pros (is it regulations)? (Maybe there is more to this than meets the eye.) Please feel free to leave a comment on this post.
Neo said on April 21, 2008
It is plain simple, LOP is not recognised becaused it is run like a business and other members of GBA feel that LOP is exposing them in terms of how far they (GBA) shouild be taking the game.
I spoke to a friend of mine and he made a point and said that who ever is playin in the GBL should be glad that there was the LOP because GBA is very reactive. Had it not been for the LOP, GBA would have dragged their feet before formin a the GBL.
According to the laws and policies of South African Sport LOP is illigal, I accept that but why cant clubs join the GBL. Have you ever heard of a provincial league that teams have to be invited to play in? If that is the case In would rather play with 5 year old daughter cos at that point in time she would have earned the right to play LOL. It was said that teams would participate in their district championships and the winners of those district championships woud be put in the league. Now you see players preparing for the Masters tournament in Maputo playin in the league. There we go again making Mickey Mouse efforts to achieve big things. THIS IS A STEPPING STONE, DONT LET IT FALL UNDER OUR FEET
Joe said on April 24, 2008
Again people comment on issues without first finding out the facts.
FACT: GBA had no reason to run a league before LOP as Metro existed.
FACT: GBL was formed after a failed Metro meeting not because of LOP.
FACT: GBA is not only about running a premier league.
FACT: GBA and SASSU BBALL Gauteng agreed that the GBL will consist of SASSU teams
FACT: Qualifiers were held to decide other teams to participate in the league and these are part of GBL
FACT: Basketball is played by all ages and this should be reflected hence a masters’ division
FACT: GBA is about real development not hype
FACT: GBA respects the legislative framework as set out by SASCOC and GOV
FACT: NO ONE WILL REPRESENT THE COUNTRY UNLESS RECOGNISED BY PROPER STRUCTURES
FACT: GBA HAS INVITED LOP MANAGEMENT AND OTHERS TO WORK WITH GBA WITHOUT LOOKING TO BENEFIT FROM BBALL.
K said on May 5, 2008
FACT: Freedom of association is protected by the South African constitution.
FACT: there is no law against benefiting from basketball (i kind of thought it was the point of a democratic and capitalist state to enjoy the benefits of a well managed idea)
FACT: as long as a player plays in a ‘recognised’ league or competition they can be selected from provincial/national duty.
and what happens to a referee that chooses to make his/her money elsewhere? that sounds like a very ominuous and mafioso type threat ……or are we in Siciliy…….
Joe said on May 6, 2008
Again, research before making statements about issues.
According to FIBA and SASCOC regulation only one association can exist on a particular level and is recogised by these organisation, in our case BSA.
This by implication means that we cannot have two BSA’s thus the freedom of association has limitation, as stipulated in the constitution.
You are correct though in saying that a player can be selected if participating in a ‘recognised’ league. FACT only BSA and GBA have the powers to ‘recognise’ the league as they are the custodians of provincial and national teams as mandated by SASCOC and FIBA.
AGAIN I PLEAD WITH BBALL COMMUNITY READ SASCOC AND FIBA REGULATIONS. COMPARE BSA AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL CONSTITUTIONS BEFORE COMMETING ON THIS ISSUE.
Baller said on May 6, 2008
GBA has lost it on this one. please concerntrate on development with kids rather than focus on the senior teams which BSA and you have failed for years now. thanks to LOP our senior players are now actively involved in basketball. i would not be surprised if GBA is fighting LOP because of money cos that is what they are interested in. Please GBA, next time elect a former vabsketballer is your chairperson. don’t be like your mother body BSA and SASSU. Lastly, BSA doesn’t follow legislation so please don’t claim to follow one. you are also illegitimate.
Joe said on May 7, 2008
Dear Baller
AGAIN, I APPEAL TO BBAL COMMUNITY, INVESTIGATE BEFORE MAKING COMMENTS, INPUTS BASED ON FACTLESS ANALYSIS ARE DISTRUCTIVE NOT CONSTRUCTIVE
FACT: Senior baskeball is a mandate of GBA as much as junior basketball.
FACT: Senior players in Gauteng actively participated in Metro before LOP existed.
FACT: GBPL fees are less than LOP fees.
FACT: GBA already receives money from Gauteng government.
FACT: The current GBA exec consists of former and current players.
FACT: GBA is in good standing with Government hence the funding and is thus legitimate.
I CHALLENGE YOU TO PRESENT EMPERICAL EVIDENCE TO DISPUTE THE ABOVE
Baller said on May 8, 2008
Fact: Development start at junior level not senior level.
Fact: Metro was never run by GBA hence you killed it last year and had teams like Tuks, Wits playing in LOP?
Fact:Was Tuk threatened last year when they played LOP?
Fact:Fees were never an issue here but organisation.
Fact:My team can also apply for funding from Government and receive it.
Fact:Tshepo was never a ball player.
Fact:GBA didn’t affiliate to BSA this year or last year, therefore its not legitimate. Funding from Government doesn’t make it legitimate my friend.
Please Joe, accept criticism and you’ll be a good leader. Stop telling us about facts. We know all this politics.
Baller said on May 8, 2008
Just a word of advice: start taking your games to the townships and you’ll see what that does to kids out there..then you’ll also get spectators.we didn’t grow up playing in indoor arenas.think of it, only Wits, Tukkies and TUT have indoor arenas.we all love the game and will appreciate if some games are played in the townships.
Interested said on May 8, 2008
Mandated or not the FACT is that GBA has failed the basketball community in Gauteng.
Just taking this year into account the only basketball event that was well organised was the SASSU qualifiers and that only catered for a tiny population of the basketball community. GBL is a reactive league that looks doomed to fail because there is no real plan. There are only 2 or 3 good teams taking part, the referees look disinterested and there is no adequate information/structure in place. All in all its a way of pushing more people away from the sport while the same guys that haven’t done anything for the game remain in charge. But GBA is being exposed for its incompetence and we need more leagues like the LOP.
Instead of pulling rank on LOP, GBA should try and find a common ground for the sake of the sport or sit down and bring all these teams together to form a stronger league, thus fostering stronger competition.
The last thing is that being a former player doesn’t make you a good administrator and no one seems to have a criteria of how some of these basketball administrators got there. Just remenber a good basketball player doesn’t always make a good coach. Same applies to administration, if you are not qualified then leave because the way things are going BASKETBALL needs new and fresh blood.
Joe said on May 12, 2008
Firstly Baller, in my previous communication I acknowledge that as GBA junior bbal is our mandate, to that effect I am heavily involved personally in this regard.
Secondly, provide evidence that GBA killed Metro, as my earlier statement said, GBL was as a result of a Metro meeting that failed to materialised.
Thirdly, I challenge you to speak to Sibongile, the bball manager at Tukkies and ask her if she was threatened from LOP this year and provide written evidence to this effect.
Also, I was and still am a bbal player, do not isolate Tsepo and generalise about GBA.
GBA did not affiliate to BSA in protest, hence the celebration that Vusi is now out. In fact bbal should thanking GBA for initiating and pushing the demise of Vuysi from as far back as 2005.
And, I challenge you to seek for funding as a provincial sport association from government without being legitimate.
I also find it amazing how when structures do not respond to criticism, people complain. And when we do we are condemn. As much as everyone has the right to criticise, we also reserve the right to respond, especially when the criticism is not factual.
SO PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR STATEMENTS.
AND BIG UP FOR THE SUGGESTION ABOUT TAKING THE GAMES TO THE TOWNSHIP, IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE CONSIDERED AND I WILL RAISE IT AGAIN WITH MY COLLEAGUES AND THE CLUBS IN THE LEAGUE.
Joe said on May 12, 2008
Dear Interested
To claim that GBA has faiedl the bball community, you first need to identify who is GBA and secondly who is the bball community because one needs to be a constituent of GBA for GBA to fail you, ARE YOU A CONTITUENT OF GBA?
If you are a constituent of GBA, in what ways has GBA failed you? Taking into account that GBA is an association of district associations, and is thus only reposible for programmes at provincial level. Meaning, district associations are responsible for organising programmes at district leve eg Joburg. Then once this has taken part, only then are programmes escalated to GBA, ARE YOU INVOLVED IN YOUR DISTRICT TO ENSURE THAT THERE PROGRAMMES?
When LOP begun last year, we invited its management to discuss oppurtunities of working with them, as we have always done with METRO as well. Unfortunately, LOP is a CC and therefore according to South African sport regulations, they cannot be a league associate member of GBA. This is not a unique rule but a universal rule applied in the USA, AU, GB, etc.
This fact was pointed out to LOP management, that if they want to be recognised as a Gauteng league they need to change thier status to a public organisation. However, LOP felt it cannot achieve its goals as a public organisation, thus IT WAS LOP’S DECISION NOT TO BE A RECOGNISED STRUCTURE. We still remain optimistic that this can be addressed as we also recognise that this impasse is not benefiting to bball.
I am the first one to recognise that bball needs fresh blood, but sport both locally and internationally is founded on volunterism, especially at District/Local level. My question to you, ARE YOU INVOLVED IN YOUR LOCAL STRUCTURE TO INJECT THIS NEEDED NEW BLOOD? HAVE YOU OFFERED YOUR SERVICE TO YOUR LOCAL CLUB OR ASSOCIATION?
Baller said on May 12, 2008
Joe if you not affiliated to BSA, then how are you legitimate?teams and players were threatened that if they play for LOP they won’t play for the country?i did apply for funding and received it..what else did i leave out now. i attend the GBA games my friend cos i love basketball and also LOP.
Joe said on May 12, 2008
Baller, we were not affiliated last year for a cause which has now been achieved. Currently, as GBA we are fully recognised by the current interim commitee. As the instigators of the current transition within BSA, we are highly influencial with the direction that BSA will take.
As I said earlier try applying for funding as an illegitimate provincial sport association and then tell me if you succeed, cause the checks and balances that apply to provincial association are very stringent.
MY QUESTION STILL REMAINS, ARE YOU PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN YOUR DISTRICT ASSOCIATION TO BRING THE NEW BLOOD THAT YOU LAMENT, BBALL NEEDS YOU
Interested said on May 12, 2008
Joe, I am not attacking or criticizing GBA only but BSA as well because the state of the game is shocking.
There were rumours that the only reason LOP was not recognised is because some people wanted a piece of a pie they didn’t cook and when this was denied those menbers set about discrediting LOP, is this true?
I play ball in gauteng so I guess I am a constituent and watch games when I hear about them.
Joe, you keep throwing facts and regulations at us but up to now you haven’t told us what programs GBA is running or has run to try and improve the game.
What has GBA done to grow the sport in Gauteng?
Why are all the major sponsors running away from basketball? No PBL, CBL and apparently Engen is also out.. Are you just going to keep relying on government donations?
Joe said on May 13, 2008
Dear Interested,
As you might be aware the previous BSA exec, which was responsible for the mess that we are in has been disbanded and an interim structure is in place. For now it will be unfair to criticise them for the state of bball.
In our engagement with LOP at no stage did we request any money from LOP. And as explained earlier as GBA we are still open to working with LOP as a League association, not as a private company. This is the only reason why we do not recognise LOP, and this can be verified with LOP management.
If you are a consituent of GBA, then you would not ask me what programmes we run, cause you will be participating in them. By constituent, you have to be a registered member of our member association eg Tshwane Basketball Association, Joburg Basketball Association, Ekurhuleni Basketball Association, Sedibeng Basketball Association.
We as GBA, are mandated constitutionally to run provicial programmes, eg Gauteng Women Tournament, Gauteng Basketball League. In addition we run national qualification tournaments, U18 club championships, U18 IPT qualifiers. Also our role is to support our members with their programmes eg the recent SASSU qualifiers, the Schools sport qualifiers, the district leagues, tournaments and development programmes.
As you can see our role in not to run basketball at the local/district level where most of development and playing is and should be taking place, but to support the distict associations in this regard. We only run programmes once they have graduated to provincial level and this normally happens on a quartely basis, except for the GBL.
This structural organisation is not only a bball exception, all the SA sporting codes are run in the very same way, this is also true of bbal internationally.
THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH BBALL IN SOUTH AFRICA IS THAT PEOPLE WITH SKILLS ARE IGNORANT OF THE ABOVE FACTS AND WHEN THESE ARE POINTED OUT, PEOPLE RUN AWAY BECAUSE THIS IS MORE COMPLEX THAN THE SIMPLISTIC EVENTS BASED SPORT ‘DEVELOPMENT’
Joe said on May 13, 2008
Dear Interested
I forgot to answer abouit the sponsors. Engen’s contract was not renewed by BSA and not the other way round and this is because we as GBA insisted that the previous Exec must vacate office before any contract is signed. The need for a change it the BSA exec is also the reason why sponsors have not being interested in bball at national level
The interim exec has a mandate to negotiate with Engen and other sponsors who might have been waiting for the regime change. We as GBA, are confident that sponsors will partner with bball.
It is now more than ever that we are hoping that the LOP management can realise the need to work within the structures framework as with their skills we can benefit more as bball. However, if other LOPs mushroom this will not augur very well with the potential big sponsors.
THUS FOR BBALL TO REACH THE HEIGHTS IT CAN REACH, ALL STAKEHOLDERS MUST BE UNDER ONE STRUCTURAL UMBRELLA AS IS IN RUGBY, CRICKET AND SOCCER LOCALLY AND BBALL INTERNATIONALLY.
Again, I emphasise, we as GBA are open to work with LOP, or any other League, as a public league organisation.
Neo said on May 13, 2008
Hai here we go again Playing tug and war while basketball is in need of serious attention. If joe and Baller sat down and had an informal conversation conversation a lot of good would come out of this.
One thing oine needs to realize is that players will always wanna mplay and if the mother body does not facilitate that, the baller will always be disgruntled (got that from the dictionary). Good only comes when we put our issues on the table whether it be complaints or praises. Joe, your in-depth knowledge on the policies of SA sports and SASCOC is very valuable but that can only be appreciated if the the general community is informed.
I was speaking to a colleage last night and she told me that Tshwane had a league running. To my surprise it has been running for a while now, I never knew. COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION COMMUNICATION. GBA needs to stop running Gauteng like its their social league where guys meet on a Friday afternoon and decide to play around. What I saw on Sunday was sad where scheduled matches were forfeited clearly because the of mis communication.
We are all stakeholders in this thing called basketball and whatever happens to basketball we have to answer. GBA needs to call a general council meeting, atleast three weeks in advance, and tell the people they are serving what they planning with the GBL and why are things being done the way they being done.
Each in his own corner we will fail but all together WE PACK A MOERSE PUNCH.
Baller said on May 13, 2008
i agree with Neo. we shud all put our heads together for bball and atleast encourage township schools to play bball then we will go somewhere. our old players shud help their communities and not fold their arms.
Katlego said on May 14, 2008
LOP recognised or not, is more organised than any one league in the country right now…we must also remember that not all of us want or are even eligible to be selected for the national side, hence our primary motivation is to play ball…the prime objectives of sport are gradually being forgotten in this power struggle that is going on…so, to the LOP…I say well done…to the new national and provincial structures, let’s hope this is a dawn of a new era where the interests of the sport will be put first…
Joe said on May 14, 2008
Neo, the reason I am engaging Baller and everyone else in this forum is because it is evident that ballers do not make an effort to understand bball within the context of sport organisation in SA and internationally and peple always argue that we do not communicate. Also, with the change of management at BSA this is an opportune time for ballers to know about structures as it is only these structures that are empowered to contribute to the new direction that BSA will take.
In regards to convening a general meeting, we as GBA had a general meeting in December, we also had another one in February, and we are planning another one within two months. Also, before GBL begun we had meetings with Metro, LOP and SASSU. Therefore, constitutionally, only the members of GBA ie District Associations and provincial structures of SASSU, Schools, Wheelchair, Technical commission, League Association are qualified to be invited to the general meetings of GBA as they constitute GBA.
As an individual player, coach, manager, adminstrator you must belong to one of the above, who in turn must report back to you. Currently, I can tell you that most bballers have no interest in joining these structures because they are not glamorous. It is in these structures, as I have mentioned, that real sport takes place.
To contextualise this argument, how many of us have heard of the Gauteng Rugby Board or SAFA Gauteng? Yet these bodies are part of the two most supported and popular sports in SA. This demonstrates that at the provincial level, programmes are not as important as at local level. This is the premise of all sports which we as bballers fail to recognise. For GBA to work, the District associations need to work, and this is dependent on you and me working at the local level.
FOR BBALL TO REALLY FLOURISH WE NEED SKILLED PEOPLE AT LOCAL LEVELS. THIS IS WHERE CRICKET, RUGBY AND SOCCER ARE KILLING US.
Joe said on May 14, 2008
Katlego,
You are stepping on very theoretical ground, and you do not want to get me started, the interest of the sport is a very loose statement and its debate is highly academic touching on the psychology and sociology of sport science.
For our purposes, though, we need to distinguish between informal and formal realisation of sport. The first recognises sport as a social activity with no organisatioal purpose and this is where LOP falls in. The second, is concerned with organised sport which is where FIBA, BSA, GBA and any other sport organisation falls in. To avoid any misinterpretation, organised refers to heirachical structural organisation and not the function or verb.
Therefore, our argument as GBA is that we see LOP as accomodating those who do want to participate in formal basketball, thus the need for us to clarify to all that if you intend to represent Gauteng or South Africa you will not be considered either as a player, coach or official. This argument is not only a basketball rule but is applied in all the other sporting codes.
I hope that the above makes sense, as I said the concept you have touched on is theoretical and can only be explained at that level.
Neo said on May 14, 2008
GBA as a mother body should stop dealing with the bigger picture and actually get their hands dirty by engaging with the districts. I have not heard of any meeting, gathering, congregation or summons from the Tshwane BA. So me as an individual if my GBA, who is the mother body in Gauteng, tells me that I should go and ask someone that I know for a fact is non existent there will be some discomforts.
As much as GBA was in the forfront of the axing of the previous BSA regime, that is only half the work. Im a for sure baller and I will give credit where its due but I will not allow myself and the people that I represent to be misled.
Since we rebuilding, how about we start with the districts and work our way up because without stable districts we will have a shaky GBA. Things like a database of all teams playing in a district and names of players currently active in our province. that will go a long way in ensuring that the mandates that you GBA gives us will be met because people in the districts will know who is accountable for what..
A challenge to all ballers, please find out which district you belong to and know who you need to speak to. As much as I wanna blame GBA and TBA and ofcourse BSA for the decline in basketball but if we just sit and fold our arms and act like 5 year old who wanna be spoon fed everything we will never go anywhere. I love you guys and keep ballin………
Kobe said on May 14, 2008
For the players: Who ever said players playing in LOP are not going to be considered for selection in provicial or national teams is talking bull, cause I (player) has close tiers with the new BSA execs and players playing in LOP dont have to worry about anything!!!
That threat by GBA is also killing ball cause they got teams like Wits pulling out of LOP…..we trying to get the sport rite.
GOOD JOB LOP
Joe said on May 14, 2008
Neo, just to reassure you, in a GBA exec meeting held last Sunday, it was resolved that all districts will be audited and will be investigated to ensure that they fulfIl their mandate.
Also, thank you very much for you closing remarks and we wish that bballers will heed your call.
WE ALSO APPEAL TO BBALLERS TO INFORM GBA IF THEY ARE NOT GETTING ANY JOY FROM THEIR DISTRICTS SO THAT WE CAN INTERVENE.
victor said on May 15, 2008
Hi,
Victor here, thanks for the input everyone is giving on the subject of basketball in SA and I think the one common point out of all this is the love of the game we all have.
Joe, you seem to know what cooking as far as structures and leagues are concerned so here is a question that I have been getting in my inbox: What will happen with the IPT’s this year considering that all contracts are being renegotiated.
ciao, V