SA Basketball – From the Eyes of LOP Basketball
After all the comments on the LOP issue, they give their opinion on SA basketball:
Information supplied by Tshiamo Ngakane:
Relevance.
The single most important objective for any basketball organisation is that it shows itself to be relevant to the people that it intends to serve. For public basketball organisations it is our duty as the basketball public to hold those organisations accountable. It is our mandate as the basketball public to ensure that the decisions taken by those public organisations do in fact represent what we as the basketball public want to see happen with basketball. Those public organisations then derive their mandate from what we as the basketball public want. With a private basketball organisation it is perhaps slightly different. We suggest that the individuals running that private organisation hold themselves accountable for ensuring that the organisation remains relevant to the people it serves. Otherwise those people go elsewhere for the service they want.
LOP Basketball is a private owned entity. Is it relevant?
LOP Basketball was started in 2007 by Pro Sports Consulting when it became painfully clear that basketball in Gauteng and in fact South Africa had come to a standstill with little or no true activity happening. We decided then that our organisation would get involved in the game because we have something to offer that others had not provided. We took responsibility. Personal responsibility! Which is something we believe was lacking in basketball. The question raised is how can a private company be expected to truly do justice to the basketball community? Why should anybody expect a private company to do the right thing for basketball? For us the answer is simple. As a company we see basketball as an industry. So the responsibility that we have taken is one that means we have invested in our personal capacity in this industry. Unfortunately this is not a viable industry at this time so the losses are heavy. But we justify the personal investment we have made in this industry because we have taken a long term view of it. It is an industry that is still in its infancy and we will make whatever investments we can make in order to rear that industry into one that eventually one day rivals the big 3 of soccer, rugby and cricket. These are big dreams…but basketball has to dream big and the players in this industry have to make the investment into this dream today so that we can realise it in future. Every Monday we look forward to reading articles about basketball from Tshepo Ditshego, Juice and on mybasketball.co.za and it saddens me that these dedicated passionate people work for Stanlib, Finweek and the like (thank you to these organisations for looking after our people in the interim). These guys should be full time basketball correspondents and media analysts. Our industry has no place for them to be fully dedicated however. If you are reading this the likelihood is that it is your story too. This story is repeated many times over. It is heartbreaking to see basketball students at all our institutions graduating and then not having the opportunity make sustainable living in the sport that got them there. It makes no sense to us that 0.01% (probably less) of basketball players on scholarships in various institutions are absorbed by the industry that helped them get there. To that we have said no more. Our organisation will do everything in its power to make the changes in basketball that will see this industry grow to the point where talented people within this industry are not lost to the financial, engineering, manufacturing or other industries. We are in direct competition to all those other industries, not even just other sporting codes. We need to realise this and get ourselves to the level where we can compete. This is the big picture that we aspire to. This is our dream. It cannot be our dream alone for no private organisation can invest in and grow an entire industry all by itself. I am convinced everyday that this is not our dream alone. Midrand Graduate Institute, Momentum, Wits Alumni Basketball Club, Putos Phly, Pretoria Heat Basketball Club, Raptors Basketball Club, Rebels Basketball Club, Monash University, Boston Media House, Egoli Magic, Varsity College, Scorpions Basketball Club, Juice, mybasketball.co.za, Tshepo Ditshego, KP Ndlovu, Tlou Networks, Darkchild Productions, ESPN and the many fans and spectators we have had at our games share that dream with us.
We are not obsessed with ownership of anything. We are not obsessed with control. We are not obsessed with ownership of a league. We have even gone so far as to make that clear in open meetings that we had with clubs and stakeholders. We are only obsessed with the basketball industry. An industry is not something that one person or organisation can own. Pro Sports, Gauteng Basketball Association, Basketball South Africa, Tshiamo Ngakane, Cabby Magongwa, Naftal Chongo, Peter Makhubela, Tsepo Nyewe nor any other individual or organisation can own the basketball industry. Our role as players within this industry is to ensure that it flourishes by investing in it. To this end we have attempted to work closely with various partners in order to start growing basketball. Our partners have included all the parties mentioned above and the Johannesburg Basketball Association (JBA), an affiliate district of the provincial structure (GBA), with whom Pro Sports (LOP Basketball) have an agreement. And we have not closed our doors to any other partners because we all have a role. We welcome any opportunity to engage all stakeholders including the associations with regards how best to invest in basketball and will never turn any such invitation down. If we need to look to invest in other areas other than and even instead of those which we currently invest in, we will. Our aim is only to make sure that the investment we make is the right one for us and basketball. We believe that the Gauteng Basketball Association (GBA) has made the right move by investing in basketball and we sincerely hope that they go from strength to strength. Basketball needs the GBA to run efficiently and make the right investments. We would love to partner with them – to consult on strategy, run their marketing or whatever other capacity. We want to be involved. In fact we call on the entire basketball community to get involved with their district associations, GBA and other provincial associations and even Basketball South Africa so that we continue to elect officials that take the game forward. We look forward to the next JBA, Ekurhululeni and GBA general meetings so that we can actively part-take and we hope that these are properly publicised by GBA so that as many people as possible from the basketball community can be represented.
Relevance is the single most important word that defines what LOP Basketball and Pro Sports Consulting are about. Before all else our goal is to be relevant to basketball players, coaches, fans and administrators. There is no feeling like sitting in a locker room before the big game, looking across at your brothers, seeing nervousness in their eyes knowing that they see the same, with tension in the air and everybody just itching to go out and releasing that energy on court. There is no feeling like winning with those brothers. There is no feeling like losing with them. Basketball organisations that are relevant will provide the environment where that feeling exists. They will provide that feeling over and over again, better all the time, the stakes always higher and the pressure greater. One day millions will watch on tv and thousands will have paid to fill the stadium where your children will be celebrating a basketball victory. Some of us at that time will remember names like Touch, Neo Mothiba, Gilchrest, Emma Ledwaba, Sophie, Lebo Mashao, Solly Mashiane, Craig Bonner, Flosh, and many others. Perhaps those names will flash across the television screens in acknowledgement of those that laid the path. We will know then that we succeeded in protecting their legacy. As an organisation that is what we are about. We have taken a step back and thought carefully about what it is that basketball needs, what has held it back and where we can make a difference in order to bring back that feeling for the true lovers of this game and protect what is our undervalued and yet rich South African basketball legacy. Then we will know we were relevant. That’s it. Period.
Tshiamo Ngakane
General Manager
LOP Basketball
BALL OR GO HOME!
thanks Tshiamo for the info. one thing am happy about is that LOP is not against any basketball structure within Gauteng and i believe GBA should take note of that. taking cheap shots at others will not advance our course. as Tshaimo says,lets work together irrespective of our affiliation to grow the game of bball.
I think LOP have made their position quite clear. It is obvious that their priorities are 1. promoting and developing basketball and 2. running a business in the basketball industry, in that order. They make it clear that they are not getting any profits at the moment and dont expect to for quite a while. In fact, they are investing with their own money. So GBA’s argument that they don’t want to be partners with a privately owned company seems a bit irrelevant. GBA have portrayed the LOP owners as money-grabbing opportunists which is clearly not the case. So the question is: what possibly can GBA’s problem be with LOP. I’m guessing its political.
GBA keep saying they made their position clear, but nowhere do they explain the rationale for not partnering with a private company. Please can someone from GBA give their reasons?
Firstly, Hector and Baller, LOP has not disputed Tsepo’s assertion about the R600 000 they quoted to GBA to run the GBL league, thus your statement about our potrayal of LOP is factless.
It amazes also, that in our correspendences we have mentioned numerous times that GBA initiated discussions with LOP as far back as last year, YET, when LOP mentions it this is plauded. We have also mentioned countless times that GBA is open to work with LOP and we are still open to work with them. this is also not recognised.
It is also is very disappointing that we have pointed out that we have a constitution which stipulates our objectives and membership. We have from the beginning of this debate asked bballers to research their facts before making sweeping statements, such as ‘political’, without understanding and explaining those statements with facts.
What the above contributions from Baller and Hector reveal is that you have either ignored all our contributions or your mind was made up with or without the facts that GBA presents. Therefore, Hector it becomes difficult to ‘give reasons’ when these were provided but have been ignored. Actually what this demonstrates is that it is pointless for GBA to continue participating in this forum as our facts will be ignored, maybe because they do not come wrapped in an ESPN, YFM branded marketing gimmick.
WE THEREFORE APPEAL TO BALLER AND HECTOR THAT YOU PLEASE READ CAREFULLY AND OBJECTIVELY OUR PREVIOUS CONTRIBUTIONS
Response to TSHIAMO
As we have pointed out in this forum, why is it in your response your fail to mention that GBA has called LOP to numerous meetings to discuss how we can work together? Why is it that you do not clarify that GBA never asked LOP for money, as has been perceived in this forum? Why is it you do not address the fact that the reason we could not work with you was the amount of money you quoted as per Tsepo’s assertion?
RELEVANCE
As GBA we have worked with Darkchild before and know that private organisations do have a relevance, this is the main reason we initiated meetings with your organisation in the first place and are looking to work in a similar fashion. The question is not about relevance but about participation and framework which you fail to address. What you also fail to mention is that your ‘agreement’ with JBA was requested by GBA and was found to be inadequate as it was only a letter of recognition which left a lot of contractual requirements.
In your input you refer to yoursef as the ‘public’ and in this undefined ‘public’ you include LOP clubs, does your ‘public’ also include the teams in GBL, the teams in Ekurhuleni League, the teams in Tshwane League, the teams in Tshwane Schools League, the teams in Katlehong, Duduza, Kwathema, Dawn Park, Tembisa, Alex, Rossetenville, Malvern, Orange Farm, Diepsloot, Sebokeng, Sharpeville, Mamelodi, Attredgeville, etc. As you put it LOP is a private elitist organisation that is relevant to such ‘public’.
Also, the term ‘mandate’ is a specific term, you do not give yourself ‘mandate’, other people give you mandate in a form of a constitution or instruction. Do you have a constitution that gives you the mandate? Are you aware that as a private body you cannot have a public ‘mandate’? And that you get your ‘mandate’ only from the shareholders of your company, which is currently Yourself ?
Tshiamo, as LOP you cannot speak on behalf of the ‘public’ as your public is your shareholders. As GBA, our ‘shareholders’, whom we are mandatedd constitutionally to speak for is EBA, JBA, TBA, SBA, SASSU GAUTENG, GAUTENG SCHOOLS. Therefore
Agian Tshiamo, Baller, Hector, as we have always argued in our meetings the REASON LOP is not recognised as a member of GBA is that you do not have a constitution, you do not have a membership, you do not belong to any international or national organisation, you answer to no one but you shareholders, which is yourself and company.
This requirement is entrenched in the South African Constitution through the NPO Act, SRAC ACT, SASCOC regulations, FIBA regulations.
THUS IF LOP REALLY WANTS TO BE RECOGNISED AS A LEGITIMATE BBALL LEAGUE YOU NEED TO AMEND YOUR STATUS OF LOP FROM A CC TO AN NPO, THIS IS A SA LEGAL REQUIREMENT.
AGAIN, TO BALLER AND HECTOR, ANALYSE WHAT WE HAVE JUST SAID OBJECTIVELY NOT WITH TAINTED MINDS. RESEARCH THE ABOVE SA LAWS, ASK YOURSELF HOW RUGBY AND CRICKET ARE DOING IT, BEFORE MAKING UNCLARIFIED LOADED STATEMENTS AS THIS ARE INCITEFUL AND WE WILL NO LONGER ENTERTAIN THEM.
TO TSHIAMO, WE ARE WAITING, FROM OUR SIDE WE HAVE INITIATED ALL OUR MEETINGS BETWEEN US, WE ARE WAITING FOR YOU, YOU KNOW WHERE AND HOW TO CONTACT US.
please Joe, read my response. i simply said atleast LOP doesn’t blame anyone and want everyone together. yes we all agree that any private association has to make profit. what we need as bballers is play organised basketball. how much LOP makes, is there problem.
if we advancing the course of keeping basketball alive then i don’t see why players playing in other leagues are banned from the national team. such an example i can give is the indian cricket league which is run privately and our very own national players are now in india playing. why,cos the UCB agreed that they play there. then what is wrong with GBA accepting that there is another structure here and players should be recognised?
why then ask Raptors and Egoli Magic to join GBL if they playing in LOP and that you knew all along? please, you are applying double standards and what you have been doing all along is to put blame on LOP, fees and all that. will you run a company at a loss? definately not. just recognise that leagues like LOP came into being because there were no formal structures in gauteng.
if GBA and LOP don’t agree on monetary terms, then let it be and let them run their show and you run your show. at the end players benefit. stop threatening players and officials.
why didn’t you invite institutions like Monash, MGI, Boston etc. because they are not SASSU affiliates? there more you get to accept that you started GBL reacting to other events and on the process too many a things went wrong the better. you have all the time reffered me to structures then at the last moment you acknowledged that JHB structure is not effective. how effective are all the structures you just mentioned.
wouldn’t as GBL be happy to see Nyakallo playing for a team in east rand unlike Vaal Ulumni? if those structures where there,then he will be doing that. that is taleng going to waste because of you being reactionary. where are alll the national team players playing now? my guess LOP..why is that?? sit and ask yourself.
we can debate about legislation and the fees charged by LOP but the question is what are we doing about these abnormal basketball situation. we sat for years without structures and at the end we had to find a common ground and accomodate each other. that is why BSA was disbanded. we need to accept that LOP is a business, GBA serves the masses from a 2 year old and their mandates will obviously be different.
why can’t we then accept and let the leagues run in harmony. yes,it will take you years or months to reach a solution between GBA and LOP. that won’t be made overnight. then in the meantime lets let bball be the winner. the two leagues should run and players and officials not be intimidated or forced to choose.
Please, let bball be a winner.
Dear Baller
What your response intends is that GBA blames and does not want everyone together as it is silent on this, in scientific study this is called selective reasoning, and is usually caused by personal feelings than logic. Also the debate on money was not raised by us, instead we were the accused, unfairly so.
Your example of the cricket IPL is incorrect, the IPL is run under the auspices of the Indian Cricket Board, and if you had your ducks you would know there is the Rebel League where the likes of Lance Klusener will be participating and all the cricketing countries have banned players who would be participating in the Rebel league.
As we have said, upon our investigation it was evident that teams and the bball community were not made aware that LOP is not recognised by GBA, hence our invitation and consequent communication.
To be personal for once, I have been ran a club and the EBL at my own expense and have done so for number of years, this you would have known if you have bothered to conduct your investigation about me and where I come from before you assume that I sacrifice my own finances.
Again to be personal, I was almost lost to BBALL because of the financial and time strain that bball put on my family. So please Baller refrain from making assumptions about what people in GBA have or have not sacrificed for bball, as you are being personal.
Again it is amazing how when this debate started GBA was accused of not recognising LOP because we were after the money, now that it apparent that we were not after the money and that it was the other way round, suddenly it does not matter if GBA and LOP agree of monetary tems, again a clear case of selective reasoning.
For the last time Baller, our agreement with SASSSU was to accomodate SASSU tertiary teams, if other institutions want to be considered they must take this up with SASSU. Also, again for the last time, Monash, etc were not invited because we could only invite one team from Joburg and the criteria was strength, Magic is stronger than the teams you have mentioned. And ineffective structure does not equal a non-existing structure, thus we recognise and will consult with the structures to optimise their effectiveness.
Nyakallo is welcomed to play for Bedfordview Dragons, which participates in the GBL and is a team from the Ekurhuleni. Again this exposes that you do not do your RESEARCH before you comment as would have known this and that East rand does not exist in Gauteng.
Baller, I am starting to think that you do not have analythical skills, apologies for the attack, but how many times must we repeat that sport locally and internationally is bound by legislation be it FIBA, NBA, and that as bball we are bound by these rules.
Also, I have said earlier some of us have been smoking this donkey of serving and improving bball for years while you ‘sat for years without structures’. Again, your lack of knowledge is very apparent, BSA has not been disbanded, the previous Executive of BSA has been disbanded. Your statement about GBA serving 2yr olds is very confusing and illogical.
The leagues cannot run in harmony, because it is constitutionally impossible, just as we cannot have two FIBAs, or two PSLs or two any bball leagues in England, Australia and other countries.
BALLER, AGAIN, PLEASE RESEARCH YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU ENGAGE IN DEBATE AS IT IS VERY DANGEROUS AND DESTRUCTIVE TO THROW AROUND UNFOUNDED STATEMENTS AND ACCUSATIONS.
I would be willing to bet with anyone that not a single person who has commented on or read though the various forums here is against basketball moving forward and presenting a solid and united front. No matter what structure we talk about, GBA, JBA, SASSU, LOP, BSA & al, they all have one goal and one goal only, to provide basketball with a platform where it can grow and establish itself as one of the top sports in the country. Unfortunately, as long as there are going to be groups or individuals who are involved in the game and who do not completely adhere to that vision, that growth is never going to take place. I’m sure that was the mindset when the former BSA bureau was ousted.
We all love the game of basketball and I’m sure it is safe to say that we all want to find ourselves in a situation where we can look forward to a VUT – Egoli Magic match as much as we look forward to a Pirates – Chiefs match…It may seem like a utopia right now given the current state of things, but I’m sure a lot of us in the community would be pleased if the sport could be professional… where young players can actually be groomed during their high-school and tertiary years to become professional basketball players. But that will never happen as long as we as the basketball community fail to realize that it is our responsibility to make it happen.
In my opinion, the debate should not be about whether or not LOP does qualify as an organization that should be allowed to run a legal and legitimate basketball league but rather what more should be done in order for basketball to grow.
I agree with Joe, that all of us should be involved in our districts: Basketball needs us all and we really can’t afford to be sofa-coaches for whom it is easy to judge and pin the tail on the donkey without knowing the whole story.
The rules and the facts that Joe has posted all throughout the threads in this forum and they should really help us all in understanding what really goes on in the South African basketball world. But now my question is, why all the fuss about an organization that decides to get involved, to take responsibility and to bring something to the table? so what if they are a closed corporation rather than an NPO? so what if they asked millions to the GBA to run a league for them? The issue is not there!
Basketball players need a platform where they can express themselves and that’s what the LOP and the GBL provide. Go to any game, GBA or LOP or whatever and the first thing that you will notice is the wealth of talent on display! LOP is not hurting basketball, its development or its growth in any way, and it is a really good thing that all the parties involved are working together to make the sport grow. In the meantime, let’s ALL support the GBL, LOP and all the other leagues and structures around the province and the country and encourage them.
please Joe, fortunately am not gonna attack you as a person as you here representing an organisation. so,please lets not get personal. this is supposed to be a debate forum regarding GBA,GBL and LOP.
the strength of a team is measured by playing against other teams and being on top. in your opinion if we were to transate what you saying, because sundowns, chiefs and pirates have good players it means they’re strong? in sport it doesn’t work like that. you have to win on the court to be judged the strongest or best. your argument about Egoli and Raptors is not on.
if you atleast said that they are the only teams you know in JHB then maybe i’ll try to understand. refer to my mail and am saying and still saying LOP is a business and GBA serves the masses from a 2 year old. implying, your responsibility is development for the whole of gauteng irrespective of age and gender, rich or poor, student or pupil etc. you serve the masses. hope that is clear now.
we all know that bot all institutions are SASSU affiliates. are we ignoring them because thay are not SASSU affiliates? that is completely wrong as GBA doesn’t have to force them to register with SASSU but as basketball custodians, you should invite them to the party then they decide if they want to or not.
i might have aired on the cricket issue and my apologise. thanks for clarifying that. i had confused the two leagues with the stanford league in west indies.
lets be honest here,we all sacrificed for bball and i don’t have to do research on you to know that. people run teams from their pockets everyday except of cause the institutions.
you being technical when saying the executive and not BSA as that is pity. the fact is BSA as those people where the face and mouth of BSA. full stop.
maybe i should ask for your advice. the teams that are in LOP and not GBL from JHB, if today they withdraw from LOP what is there for them to do?? please help.
if you recall, i once raised an issue that you are not BSA affiliates and how then do you call yourself legitimate. your response was that you didn’t affiliate bacause you were against BSA. yet you came back and said you receiving funding from government.
by right and protocol GBA wouldn’t have received funding as they are not affiliated to the mother body. yet you got funding. my point here is to show you that we don’t always have to work around legislation, legitimacy to make things work.
each situation is different and should be approached as that. the same way we find ourselves with LOP and GBA. you accomodating other teams as much as they accomodating others. until we have structures accomodating all teams, unfortunately both have to find a common ground. that is not for the sake of GBA or LOP but players.
lastly, if i ever attached you as an individual i apologise as that would be wrong on my part.
Baller, apologies accepted, we need to separate BSA as a structure and BSA the executive. As a structure of BSA we are very legitimate as we fulfil all the requirements as per the BSA constitution and SASCOC guidelilnes, hence we do not need the BSA executive to legitimise us. To clarify the BSA general council is the only body that can declare a national body illegitmate not the executive.
Again, JHB was supposed to conduct the tournment to decide who should represent them in the GBL, which they failed to do and accordingly an alternative criteria had to be used. Currently, our criteria has been proven to have scientifically sound as Raptors have proven their quality and there is no argument about the quality of Magic.
As explained, currently there are teams from Ekurhuleni, Sedibeng and Tshwane who did not qualify for the GBL and accordingly these are participating in their district leagues, meaning teams from Joburg will have to participate in a Joburg District League.
In case I might sound as if I am not sympathetic to the other tertiary institutions in LOP, I am currently employed in one of these institutions, and feel the pain of not being recognised in CHE and SASSU, but I understand and accept the legislation that governs this, and will challenge the legislation within the correct framework and platforms.
Joe, the point is that GBA is not just “not recognising” LOP; they are actively trying to hurt LOP by banning players and ref’s. The point has been made: Just let the players choose for themselves. That way GBA doesnt need to recognise LOP if they dont want to, and players wont feel coerced. Lift the ban and lets just get on and play ball…
I would be willing to bet with anyone that not a single person who has commented on or read though the various forums here is against basketball moving forward and presenting a solid and united front. No matter what structure we talk about, GBA, JBA, SASSU, LOP, BSA et al, they all have one goal and one goal only, to provide basketball with a platform where it can grow and establish itself as one of the top sports in the country. Unfortunately, as long as there are going to be groups or individuals who are involved in the game and who do not completely adhere to that vision, that growth is never going to take place. I’m sure that was the mindset when the former BSA bureau was ousted.
We all love the game of basketball and I’m sure it is safe to say that we all want to find ourselves in a situation where we can look forward to a VUT – Egoli Magic match as much as we look forward to a Lakers-Spurs match or, to bring it close to home, a Pirates – Chiefs match…It may seem like a utopia right now given the current state of things, but I’m sure a lot of us in the community would be pleased if the sport could be professional… where young players can actually be groomed during their high-school and tertiary years to become professional basketball players. But that will never happen as long as we as the basketball community fail to realize that it is our responsibility to make it happen.
In my opinion, the debate should not be about whether or not LOP does qualify as an organization that should be allowed to run a legal and legitimate basketball league but rather what more should be done in order for basketball to grow.
I agree with Joe, that all of us should be involved in our districts: Basketball needs us all and we really can’t afford to be sofa-coaches for whom it is easy to judge and pin the tail on the donkey without knowing the whole story.
The rules and the facts that Joe has posted all throughout the threads in this forum should really help us all in understanding what really goes on in the South African basketball world. But now my question is, why all the fuss about an organization that decides to get involved, to take responsibility and to bring something to the table? It doesn’t make any sense! so what if they are a closed corporation rather than an NPO? so what if they asked millions to the GBA to run a league for them? And who says that we cannot have two, three or four competitive leagues running concurrently?
It doesn’t really matter that the LOP owners or some other individuals involved in some other basketball projects, are doing everything at their own expense, we feel for them and we honor and thank them for their sacrifices but the issue is not there! What they are actually doing is showing us how determined they are to see the game that they love grow into one of the bigger sports in the country and we should all join and help and support them.
Basketball players, be it at High school level, tertiary or senior, need a platform where they can express themselves. That’s what we should all focus on and that’s what the LOP and the GBL provide. Go to any game, GBA or LOP or whatever and the first thing that you will notice is the wealth of talent on display! Certainly we must all work within the confines of the rules that govern our beloved sport but in my opinion, those rules can be amended if it helps moving the sport forward!
I’m no expert and i know a lot of people are not going to be happy with what I’m about to say but anybody who loves basketball can see clearly that the setup of LOP is not hurting basketball, its development or its growth in any way. That it is a rebel league in the eyes of SA Basketball and the rules by which it abides is really not that relevant, the fact of the matter is that LOP is giving players an opportunity to hone their skills, to grow as players and to develop their game.The same thing can be said about officials. What’s the point of threatening them with bans and other punishments? Are they affecting the integrity of the game of basketball in any way? What effect do you expect such a threat to have on a player who gets the opportunity to play, to do what he/she does best, to work hard, to face strong opponents from whom he/she can learn?
Regardless of who initiated the communication, it is a really good thing that all the parties involved are working together to make the sport grow. For the sake of the game that we love, let’s all get involved in that process and let’s find ways to get things right… Whatever we all want basketball to be like a year, two, five or 10 years from now, we have to start building it now. The next Team SA players have to be groomed now and what better way to inspire them to work hard on their game that giving them the opportunity to see the current crop of talented SA players at work on a regular basis?
My opinion: LOP and GBL can co-exist and be both extremely competitive and instead of dwelling on technicalities and rules that can be actually be changed to accomodate the growth of the sport, let’s ALL support the GBL, LOP and all the other leagues and structures around the province and the country and encourage them.
thanks Springs. you did justice to the whole debate. let bball be the winner.
Hector and Springs, you are both missing the point which we have been trying to explain.
Basketball, like any other sporting code in South Africa is governed by a legislative framework. According to this framework SASCOC is the custodian of sport in SA. This means that for basketball to be recognised by government and be able to participate internationally ie Zone Six, Fiba Africa, Fiba, Olympics, etc we have to be recognised by SASCOC. For this to happen we have to abide by the SASCOC regulations.
According to the SASCOC regulations:
6.1 Members shall be subordinate to SASCOC and must comply with this Constitution, the Regulations, the Rules and any directives issued by SASCOC from time to time subject to the proviso that any directive shall not be in conflict with any requirement of the relevant international body to which the Member is affiliated.
6.2 Members’ constitutions and any rules or regulations formulated thereunder shall not be in conflict with the constitution of their international body and/or this Constitution.
It goes on say:
7.2.1 No Member will be eligible to acquire or to retain membership of SASCOC unless It has a constitution which provides for:
7.2.1.1 open elections to be held at intervals of not more than four (4) years;
And again:
7.4 No National Sports Federation may be used as a source of profit for its officials or for those who have lent funds to it.
These regulations are entrenched in the BSA consitution and as members of BSA our constitution cannot be in conflict with that of BSA or SASCOC as demostrated above.
These regulations are further supported by FIBA regulations:
3.1 FIBA is a non-profit-making organisation. Therefore, it shall not pursue any objective for its own gains.
4.1 The mission of FIBA is to promote the sport of basketball throughout the world and to lead the basketball movement as recognised by the International Olympic Committee. FIBA’s role is to:
a. Control, regulate, supervise and direct, and to foster, encourage and advance the sport of basketball
and the practice of men’s and women’s basketball in all its forms and in all age groups in every
country worldwide;
8.3 The statutes and regulations of national member federations shall comply fully with the General Statutes
and Internal Regulations of FIBA. The General Statutes and Internal Regulations of FIBA automatically
form part of the national member federations’ statutes and regulations. In the event of doubt or conflict,
the General Statutes and Internal Regulations of FIBA shall prevail.
In the final analysis no basketball organisation which exist as a Profit Making organisation ie LOP, can be recognised by any affiliate of FIBA or SASCOC. As GBA we are bound by these regulations not to recognise LOP, it is not our decision to make.
As we have been arguing, if LOP wants recognition, it must amend its status from a Private company to an NPO. This fact has been explained, from last year, to the LOP management, to which they have turned a blind eye.
As a result we bound by FIBA and SASCOC not to recognise players and officials participating in LOP. This is going to be escalated to BSA and FIBA level.
Joe, for interest sake besides the GBL are there any activities lined up by GBA in the coming 2 months or so. one other thing how do referees, table officials and coaches register to be catered under GBA.
Baller, the GBA exec is meeting on Sunday to confirm the next programme, on Monday I will report back with dates and venues. As for non-player registration you need to register with your local structure, who will then forward your name to GBA.
Couple of points
1. JBA is a public organisation which has mandate given to it by basketball teams operating in its district.
2. JBA is an affiliate district of GBA – just like Ekurhuleni, Tshwane, Sedibeng and West Rand
3. JBA had an agreement with LOP Basketball that was in line with the mandate given to it by the teams – this was in fact ratified by the teams in their signing on in the league
4. Surely when LOP Basketball speaks about the public they are referring to the teams that JBA represents and that they were required to serve under the agreement in with JBA – why are JBA district teams seen as elitist bunch by Joe? Why are they not given the same accord as teams from other districts?
5. Is the GBA league free? I thought it cost like R3500 – please clear this up Joe. If it does cost R3000 how do you figure that difference between your fee and LOP Basketball makes one elitist and the other not.
6. In the interest of basketball could Joe please detail what contractual arrangement the law requires that JBA and LOP Basketball did not meet?
7. Why as GBA chosen to ignore the wants of the members in one of its own districts?
8. My understanding is that GBA approached Pro Sports Consulting (LOP owners) in order to run the league and Pro Sports gave a full breakdown of costing. From what I know the actual cost of Pro Sports simple running the league was far less than 600k and that the 600k was for full range of consulting and marketing services over and beyond actually just running the league. Why are you guys not clear about that Joe? What was the actual fee Pro Sports said was for just simply running the league?
9. What is the cost of running a league? If GBA wanted this consulting company to come and run their league, what were they expecting to pay?
10. LOP Basketball management held a meeting for all the teams in LOP/JBA league and they told us about the issues GBA has and that they were not recognised so that assertion by Joe is a fabrication. The teams were actually told by LOP that we should find a way to work GBA and try and play in their league – there was a unanimous NO on that!!
11. Why does GBA ignore what basketball players in JBA want? That seems very convenient and easy
12. GBA called a general meeting where all these issues were going to be discussed and some committee elected – this meeting was well advertised and people pitched up. The whole of GBA management did not pitch however. Maybe they were scared about being voted out. No other meetings have been advertised by GBA
13. Can GBA make available to the public the minutes of the meeting where decided to ban LOP Basketball
14. Chinese Basketball League is oldest running basketball league in SA. It is a league that at some stage used racial composition in people play in it – not sure if they still do? Why has GBA never banned them? But GBA banned LOP Basketball which is inclusive and representative in a matter of weeks
15. Rainbow Basketball League has basically only private school playing in it except for few big government school like KES. They don let public schools play in it. Has GBA banned them and their players too because they seem clearly elitist – seems to me like LOP is convenient target .
16. The reality is that there are all these organisations that run under GBA’s jurisdiction that GBA conveniently ignores because it suits them – their players are not banned. So to me it seems like there is a simple agenda here otherwise GBA should be taking action against all those leagues – if it does not there is a clear agenda to me.
17. I play soccer in the corporate league – every other week I have contend with playing against players from Chiefs, Pirates, Supersport United – I do not see the PSL banning the corporate leagues and Pirates and Chiefs players (you do not have to respond to this point but I thought how funny the truth is sometimes)
18. LOP Basketball runs clinics for table officials at their cost – fact
Might be easier if you just answer point by point
Is there a constitution that governs basketball in SA (e.g BSA consititution) where it outlines what can and cannot be done in terms basketball in SA. If so, where can it be found?
Basketball is almost becoming the sport for the few…
People think that they own the sport in their personal capacity and in my humble opinion this LOP vs GBA saga goes a long way in proving it. People need to find solutions instead of swinging mud at each other under the veil of this forum.
This reminds me of the SA teams that used to be picked mainly from Gauteng and in some cases from one team.
We need to start running basketball in a professional way if we want to take it out of the dark ages.
GBA are trying to regulate a sport that’s in a mess but their methods are inconsistent and they don’t take the future of LOP teams and players into account. While LOP took advantage of a chaotic situation to come up with a solution without doing enough research in terms of rules and regulations.
BASKETBALL NEED SOLUTIONS SO INSTEAD OF GOING AROUND IN A CIRCLE, GBA and LOP need to sit down and put their efforts together to find a way forward.
Interested
I cannot agree with you more, we could spend till the next century debating for and against, which is very tiresome and would not ultimately solve much.
It is the prerogative of GBA to regulate bball in Gauteng and if the bball community is of the opinion that the current Exco is not servicing them. Then you can pass a vote of no confidence in the appropriate structures, just as GBA did with the previous BSA exec.
OR
As GBA we had invited LOP to work with us and that invitation still stands.
Joe after all that you have said about LOP I only think it fair that a response to the points made is given so that things can be clarified. Only when things are clear can a discussion be taken forward.
Joe, I think for the sake of transparency, you should respond to “Demystifier” points because he raises some good issues otherwise it looks like GBA is applying double standards when it comes to the LOP issue.
There a few points that go a long way in contradicting GBA stance on the LOP matter so your views or response would be appreciated.
OK, here goes…
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. The ‘agreement is not contitutional.
4. The ‘agreement’ does not include such a clause and ONLYJBA have the constitutional mandate to speak on behalf of their members. Charging R4000 for a local league discriminates agains teams from places such as Diepsloot and Orange Farm, thus elitist tag.
5. GBL is a provincial league and cannot be compared to a local league. Secondly, District teams are subsidised as already stated.
6. Contract should have terms and conditions, roles and responsibilities, authority, rights, etc. But more importantly the contract should clarify by who and how decicions are made especially in dispute resolution.
7. The wants of the our members must according to the constitution, which they are bound as members.
8. The request to Pro Sport was for running the league thus the proposal was taken as such. Running a league is not exclusive of marketing and development of the league.
9. The cost of running a league must be affordable, GBA could not afford the quote.
10. I’m not sure that I understand the first part, but LOP do not have the constitutional right to convene a JBA general meeting, only JBA have that right.
11. As already stated these wants must be informed by the JBA, GBA, BSA, SASCOC and FIBA regulations, which is this case they do not.
12. Please be specific, in terms of the date and title of notice and the agenda. Also, was TBA, EBA, SBA, SASSU Gauteng, Schools also in that meeting, please provide with a register, cause only a constituted council meeting have the constitutional right to pass a vote of no confidence. Other meetings have been executive meetings, and notice is send to exec members. As already stated a general council meeting will be convened by July and members of GBA will be invited.
13. A letter was circulated to that effect, otherwise we would not be having this discussion.
14. The reason for banning LOP has nothing to do with inclusivity, but the legal status as we have been at pains to illustrate.
15. As we have explained, a Gauteng Schools structure has been formed and one of its mandate is to resolve the various school’s bodies issue, which was indentified in the GBA bosberaad meeting last year.
16. All of thes organisations are public entities, not private companies, which again is the reason LOP cannot be recognised by GBA. Again, the structures that are not properly structured are working with GBA to rectify their status, unlike LOP who ignored our advice.
17. Are they doing it without permission from their clubs?
18. What LOP does is irrelevant, what is relevant is are they are recognised organisation according to GBA, BSA, SASCOC and FIBA regulations?
AGAIN, WE CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT THIS, ULTIMATELY GBA IS HAS INVITED LOP TO WORK WITH US, JUST AS THE OTHER STRUCTURES QUOTED HERE. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE OTHER STRUCTURES ARE WORKING WITH GBA TO FIND A WAY FORWARD. THE INVITATION TO LOP IS STILL OPEN….
Thanks Joe. You clarified a lot there.
1. Which part of the I have gone thru the JBA constitution several times to find which part of the agreement goes against the constitution – I could not find the part. Perhaps you can help.
2. Which part of the constitution did you say you got the part about the need for assigning of roles or is that what GBA decided they would like to see?
3. Knowing what the JBA was trying to achieve with the agreement why you could you not assist them in completing the contract requirements?
4. As Hector has said because you decided not to assist JBA you just simply discarded JBA members. Shame for them I guess (you know I really don get why GBA is happy contract with LOP guys but they not willing help JBA contract with LOP cats)
5. As you said previously GBA decided to start a league when Metro failed – yet GBA did not even recognise Metro. Have you told the public that? That GBA did not even recognise the very league that they apparently were waiting on.
6. At no point was GBA sitting there calling Metro an elitist organisation but they were charging teams over R6000 – and again you guys only did something when this league did not work out…meaning you seemingly would have been more than satisfied to allow a league that you did not recognise to continue operating and charging these ‘elitist’ fees.
7. Metro not recognised – players and teams not punished (you have a point here Hector)…whats good for one is not good for others.
8. 600k fee was a once off cost. Pro Sport made it clear that they did not want to own a league. So the 600k included training for GBA so that GBA could run the league and related activities themselves. In fact Pro Sport was saying it costs that much…but we train you to do it yourself immediately so that you do not have to pay someone external that kind of fee. Maybe that makes no difference but I think it needs to be said. To sit there and say something needs to be affordable without having an inkling of what goes into the services you require is a joke. If GBA truly had an idea of what they doing they would be able to calculate some sort of rough cost. Joe calculate what all those services cost and then work out your affordable rate.
I would like to thank you sincerely for your time here. Forums like this are good cos discussion is needed. in basketball. Basketball needs people to act and stop talking however…enough talking has been done. Joe I hope you sort out issues with ball Gauteng. This thing has been dead for a long time without a sound from the likes of GBA. Its about time there was some activity.
Demystifier,
1. Article 8.1.2.1 of the JBA constitution says that a League Association shall be recognised by JBA to run the elite district basketball league, LOP is not an association it is a private company.
2. The answer above nullifies your second question.
3. JBA, through its chairman who sits in the GBA exec, was aware why GBA could not work with LOP, again the above answers this question as well.
4. , Raptors participated in the GBLi and is from Joburg, thus Hector’s statement is unfounded. It is in bad faith that when an affilieate engages in actions that a mother body has rejected.
5. GBA and metro were in constant negotiations to resolve this impasse, also we refrained from issuing a banning order as Metro was a public organisation whose purpose was in line with GBA purpose.
6. Again, Metro was a public organisation, meaning members decided through the exec about the fees. Again, Metro and GBA had numerous meetings to address the restructuring of Metro.
7. Metro was a public organisation, LOP is a private organisation, this is our point of departure which is regulated by SASCOC and FIBA, please stop comparing an apple with a big mac.
8. If GBA wanted training there are other organisations that provide training, but that is not what we asked for.
AGAIN, LIKE WE HAVE SAID, RESEARCH BEFORE MAKING UNFOUNDED STATEMENTS AND THROWING WILD ACCUSATIONS. GBA IS NOT A PRIVATE COMPANY. IT IS AN ASSOCIATION OF MEMBERS.
MEANING IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH GBA, YOU ARE WELCOME TO KICK THE EXEC OUT OF OFFICE AND ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY, THAT IS REAL ACTION.
Your explanations and reasoning actually do make a lot of sense, Joe, but i was just wondering, what, according to the texts should be the way forward? Speaking from a basketball fan’s standpoint, isn’t it at all possible for the texts to be amended a bit to accommodate enterprises such as LOP or can LOP maybe be granted a form of special consideration from GBA? I mean, what is supposed to happen to all the players and officials involved? Don’t get me wrong, i’m not acting as an LOP advocate and i really do understand all of the things that you have talked about and agree with all of them. I am just asking all of this as a basketball fan and a member of the basketball community (which i am.)
Another thing, how far along in the process of improving communication is the GBA?
1. Clause 8 of the constitution deals with membership. Article 8.1.2 deals with league associations that wish register that association with JBA. LOP is not the same. The article does not prohibit JBA from entering into an arrangement and contracting with a private company in order to run a league on their behalf or even run a league in their district. Please consult legal if need be – and I mean that.
2. You must be honest about what the Pro Sport fee entailed before you start going to the public and saying these guys are charging us 600k to run the league….now you sit here and say actually that 600k includes things that we are not looking for but the total amount for what we are looking for is mentioned and its not 600k. Thats a total misrepresentation.
3. GBA had numerous meetings with the exec of Metro? Meeting minutes please.
4. Chinese Basketball association runs in Joburg but is not affiliated to JBA and runs without the consent. Article 8.3 of the constitution points to the fact that they are automatically suspended from Basketball in South Africa. Has GBA communicated this so swiftly to them as they did with others.
5. If school sports association deals with the school sports issue why was GBA and EBA so quick to decide to threaten to ban Bishop Bavin High School for hosting a clinic that was being run by SA Players Association which is a non profit organisation.
6. Bishop Bavin had never even heard EBA or you Joe (its chairman) before you decided to ban them. In other words you never had any reason to communicate or engage with a school in your district until you felt the need to ban them for hosting a clinic. Is this how basketball is run? It seems that that is how you guys run basketball…through threats.
7. Again LOP has an expressed agreement with JBA in order for LOP to operate in JBA. This is not against the constitution of JBA. GBA banning LOP is tantamount to SAFA banning a corporate soccert league. There are hundreds of these none of them banned by association that run those sports because such ban is pure rubbish. Consult legal.
My friend there are hundreds of cricket rugby and soccer leagues running in the country. There is no such thing as SAFA, SARU or CSA banning people from forming such leagues. But then you can see which people have been running basketball in South Africa they have taken the sport.
8. Im not sure which accusations were wild. I am also not sure which statements were unfounded.
9. Clubs paid over R6000 to play in Metro last yr….the teams played no more than 6 games the whole season. That money is gone. That has happened for the 1 season. That is more private an organisation than LOP will ever be. If the purpose of taking people money without providing anything in return is line with GBA wants then good luck to you bra.
GBA should be banning organisations that do that!!